Gracie Abrams on How Writing With Her BFF — And Lessons From Taylor Swift — Made Her A Standout Songwriter

Sitting in a sun-drenched room at Los Angeles’ Beverly Hilton, Gracie Abrams is shaking her head “no.” She’s reflecting on a breakout 2024 — during which she scored her highest-charting Billboard Hot 100 hit to date and received her second Grammy Award nomination, for “Us,” a collaboration with none other than Taylor Swift. But Abrams still struggles to see herself as the superstar she’s become.

“It’s such a dream and a pretty wild ride to look back on the year and be able to reflect on all of these moments that I never could have imagined ever happening,” the 25-year-old says in quiet awe. When it comes to the matter of her smash hit “That’s So True,” it is true — she never saw it coming. After humming the song’s in-the-works hook and melody for months, she and her songwriting partner and roommate Audrey Hobert finished it in about 15 minutes one day after “laughing our asses off on the roof” of New York’s Electric Lady Studios.

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The catchy, stream-of-consciousness song was one of four additions to the deluxe version of Abrams’ second album, The Secret of Us (which arrived in October), but quickly surpassed the album’s previous hits, including “I Love You, I’m Sorry” and “Close to You” (which peaked at Nos. 19 and 49, respectively, while “True” reached No. 6). Such wins have helped Abrams, who co-wrote and co-­produced every track on The Secret of Us and its deluxe edition, earn the Billboard‘s 2025 Women in Music Songwriter of the Year honor — but, with characteristic humility, she won’t say she’s mastered the craft just yet.

“F–k no! Sorry,” she says with a laugh. “I feel very far away from having mastered anything in my life. But I will continue to attempt to get closer to that point.”

Since you released your debut album in 2023, how have you grown as a songwriter?

What I can point to specifically that has broadened my horizons is the partnership I’ve had with Audrey. She’s my oldest friend and we very much grew up together, and then to fold in this collaborative [relationship] was not something either of us ever would have anticipated. But as a songwriter, to find someone who you feel so open with, who you trust so much, who knows everything about you, who knows what your conversational language sounds like, who knows if you’re lying about a feeling… it infused so much life into our album that we made together.

What’s an example of a time she called “bulls–t” on you?

Less like “bulls–t” and more [like] in the morning if I would come downstairs and she’s like, “How are you doing?” I’m like, “I’m fine.” And she’s like, “You f–king liar.” Or like, “I’m really over that person,” [and she’s like,] “No, you’re not, you liar.” We checked each other as much in our songwriting process as we did in our day-to-day friendship.

As we speak, you’re about to head out on your European/U.K. tour [which Abrams wrapped March 12]. How did you spend your time before returning to the road?

I have just come back from being at Aaron [Dessner’s studio, Long Pond, in New York] so I feel like… I’m in the middle of something. I don’t know what it is yet… We’ve been collecting a whole lot of music over the past few months, and he and I are both very curious about all of it because I think [the songs] belong in different worlds a little bit, which excites me. I think that means there are many possibilities for what either the singular project looks like or multiple [projects].

You said you haven’t mastered songwriting yet. Do you feel close?

No. Oh, my God, no. I want to broaden my vocabulary times a thousand. I want to spend the majority of my year reading so that I can do that. I feel nowhere near that level. I have a million people I want to continue to learn from. Taylor is a great example of someone I’ve been lucky enough to spend a lot of time around and every single time I’m like, “Tell me everything you know, please. Teach me how to be.” I want to live fully and do my best to capture what that feels like.

This story appears in the March 22, 2025, issue of Billboard.